Resilience Rooted in Tradition

In this episode, we speak with Dr. David Tsosie, a traditional knowledge holder and member of the Navajo Nation. Dr. Tsosie reflects on the impact of COVID-19 within his community, emphasizing the limitations of ceremonial practices in addressing a new and unfamiliar illness. He shares how ancestral teachings, prayer songs, and herbal remedies provided spiritual and emotional support during the pandemic. The conversation explores the importance of maintaining cultural protocols while also recognizing the role of Western medicine. 

This podcast shares Indigenous stories of resilience and mental wellbeing during and after COVID-19. Hear from first responders, educators, traditional knowledge holders, and recovery community members as they reflect on challenges, lessons, and culturally grounded healing. Each episode also highlights local resources for Indigenous communities in northern Arizona.

Created by NAU’s Center for Community Health and Engaged Research (CHER) with Hopi and Navajo Tribal members. Funded by Project HOPE.

We would like to acknowledge Dr. Darold Joseph for sharing his beautiful flute recordings with us. It brought a meaningful dimension to the podcast and his artistry is sincerely appreciated.

Resources: https://linktr.ee/voicesnativenations

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:04

Hello, and welcome to the voices of Native Nations in the Southwest during the COVID-19 pandemic. I'm Melinda Smith, and in this series, we're speaking with community members who have stepped forward in unique and powerful ways during the pandemic. These conversations will highlight the lived experiences of first responders, educators, traditional knowledge holders, and practitioners, and members of the recovery community from Native nations in the Southwest. Their stories offer wisdom, strength, and lessons from our communities and future generations. Today I'm honored to welcome Dr. David J. Sulsey, a traditional knowledge holder from the Navajo Nation. David, thank you for joining us and sharing your story. Could you begin by telling us who you are and your role and your connection to your community before and during the pandemic?

SPEAKER_01: 1:00

Okay, um, like it was stated, my name is David, uh Dr. David J. Sosi. I'm a member of the Navajo Nation and my clan, which is uh customary to do and introducing yourself before people. Uh, I'm not sure if you're not going to be able to do it. Just a little background of who I am. Um I'm an educator by profession. I went to the University of Brigham Young University, and then also Northern Arizona University. I got my bachelor's from uh Brigham Young University back in 19 early 70s. And then also I got my master's in educational leadership and supervision from Pennsylvania State University, and I since recently got my doctorate degree in uh educational leadership and supervision. And I taught in a in a in a BIA school for several years, and then also in a public school setting in the southern part of Utah, and then I was asked to run for a council delegate representing my community from Jedito and Low Mountain. And so I did that, and I served on the Navajo Council, Navajo Nation Council, for a total of eight years. And at the same time, I was also elected as a board of supervisor for Navajo County. In some counties, they refer to the board of supervisors as board commissioners. So but in Arizona we refer to them as the board of supervisor. And I served in that capacity for several years, mainly working with the outside communities and uh addressing a lot of the issues that are faced within the counties. So I did that for a number of years. After leaving the Navajo Nation Council, my wife and I, we started a nonprofit organization because one of the things that I have come to realize being on the council was that there's a tremendous need for housing. And then also the fact that many of our elderly cannot afford housing. And then also the low-income families. There's really no program available to offer mortgage to them. The Navajo Nation does have a housing program, but the need is so tremendous that not all of the people's needs are met. So through this nonprofit organization, which we call Twilight Dawn Incorporated, we did build houses for families, low-income families. We helped them build their homes. Because one of the things that we that I have come to realize is that our people have become too dependent on the tribal government, the state government, and the federal government. And this is really not a fault of their own. I honestly believe that it was sort of the intent of the treaty that was entered into with my people. Way back in 1868, there was a treaty that was entered into with the Navajo Nation. And within that treaty, there were certain things that they specified. And one of the things that they talked about was providing an education for our children, and then also providing the necessary equipment to help us become farmers. And as long as we laid down our bow and arrow and become good little Indians, they promised to take care of us. So that concept of being taken care of by the federal government throughout the years has really grown sort of like a way of life dependent upon the government, whether it is the tribal government, state government, or federal government. We become dependent upon them. We expect them to do things for us. So in the program that we started, we wanted to reverse that and have the people depend on themselves to be able to build their own house. So that's what we did for a number of years. Then more recently, we started a nonprofit organization called the Net Center Research and Evaluation. And that particular organization is really aimed at looking at a lot of the issues and problems that we're faced with as a nation, as an Avalon nation, looking at it through what we call the Net Lens. The Net lens will be like looking at things, the issues, the problems that we're facing through our cultural stories, our cultural ceremonies, and some of the way of life that we have. What is important to us as the net people? So addressing those issues from that perspective. And we've been able to do that and we continuously. And our main aim is to preserve the ecosystem, the water, the air, the fire, everything that's on this earth, the vegetation, the animal life, and whatever we can do to preserve their existence is what we're really all about. And more recently, I've also been asked to teach at uh Navajo Technical University, uh, teaching indigenous studies. And some of the classes that I've taught within the last three years were all aimed at reinitiating the cultural ways of our people, the stories that we have, and then also uh, I guess just a way of life, our government, and then also looking at the indigenous governance of all other tribes and how they're set up, and then also ethics and moral of the native people. So those are just some of the few that I've been taught, and that's currently what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00: 6:35

Thank you. Yeah, I just want to um before we move on to the next question, acknowledge um and commend the incredible work you've done for your tribe and your community. It's really clear that your efforts have gone far beyond any single role and you've worn many hats. The impact of your dedication is truly inspiring. So thank you. So we'll move on to the first main question. What did you learn from the COVID-19 pandemic in your role as a traditional knowledge holder in your community?

SPEAKER_01: 7:05

Well, um, one of the things that our people say, and it's a saying that we believe in is that um, and that basically translates to there are a lot of things that happen, and some are unexpected, and we just have to be prepared and always be reverent in whatever that you do. And so that's that's sort of like I guess something that I have come to realize that this sickness that became among us was something that's not unexpected, and it was new, the COVID-19, and we don't know where it originated from. So, and we didn't really have any type of ceremonial ways that can be used to overcome the effects of this disease, I guess immediately. It was something that kind of just sort of uh prolonged its existence. You know, as the net people, we have a long story, a history about how we evolved, and then also how the great spirit and all of the holy people gave a certain ceremonial ways that was used by our ancestors to maintain, I guess, a good health and also a mental stability, and those were were some of the ceremonies that were given to us. And then at the same time, there were also certain uh protocols established with regards to how we're supposed to live if we were to live a healthy life, and some of those protocols had to be followed, and I guess you could almost refer to them as warnings or something that's to be feared. Like as an example, if there's a lightning that strikes near you, the effects of that lightning can affect you, the smell of it, or even the vibration of the thunder itself, it can affect your body and it can place within your existence some type of like almost a spiritual ailment. And if that is not corrected by some of these ceremonies that we have, those that that sickness or whatever it is, we call it ba'li, that means the effects of it can grow into something that will eventually cause you uh sickness, various types of sickness. And the only way that that can be removed is to have certain ceremonies and anywhere between maybe uh a day to some that lasts as as long as uh nine days. And so those ceremonies can can restore uh whatever it whatever illness that has caused disturbance and disharmony in your existence, and those ceremonies can restore that, and whatever it is that's causing you sickness can be taken out. And one of the things that I have come to to I guess realize is that our ceremonies, all the things that we we have are only effective for certain things that's there within our environment and any disturbance that occurs with our environment, then these ceremonies can be used to correct them. But COVID-19 was an outside illness. It came from somewhere, and we didn't have the ceremonies to correct that, and it was something where we had to turn to what we call the five man's medicine, the um the different vaccine and all we had to turn to that in order to use that to combat a lot of the sicknesses that are being felt because of COVID-19. Um but the thing that I have also come to realize is that we still have our ceremonies, we still have our stories, and we also have uh herbs that we use, and that's where a lot of our people turn to that, the medicine people. They turn to the various types of herbs that we have, and those are medicines, and there are various ways that they are collected and prepared, and that's what a lot of our people use to help them overcome the sickness that they were experiencing. Then I guess the also the other thing that I have come to realize is that on our reservation we don't have the necessary infrastructure like water and electricity. These are not readily available in many parts of our reservation. And one of the things that they really emphasize uh through, I guess, the health procedure is to always wash your hand and every so often and whatever food that you have to have them refrigerated and then also to stay at home. But because of our people lacking electricity, they had to go out and buy food. So when they do that, there's always that chance of uh coming in contact with other people and some who might have COVID-19.

SPEAKER_00: 11:57

Thank you for sharing that. What you've said really brings into focus the depth of traditional knowledge and how um these practices and teachings really continue to guide our communities even in the face of something as unfamiliar as COVID-19 during the pandemic. So if you're open to sharing, how do you see these traditional teachings and tools continuing to guide younger generations in responding to any future challenges like this?

SPEAKER_01: 12:26

You know, as um Navajo people, and I'm pretty sure it's true for other Indian tribes, we have knowledge that connects us with the earth, and there's that communication that that we have. And in in in Navajo, we call it uh that means like the spiritual communication that we have, and then Pachahanatsi means that it talks to us. So, and our elders were were really, I guess, accomplished in the area as to how they communicated with nature. And there are a lot of plants that we still have that serve as herbs for different types of sickness. So that's one thing that I I think our young people really came to realize the importance of it. They came to realize that because a lot of them started like calling me and calling other medicine people with regards to what kind of herbs are available out there that we can use. And then also, are there any type of special prayer that is to be offered? Or is there any special song that's got to be sung in order to collect these herbs? And then also, how do you use these herbs or the protocol? How do you prepare them and how do you use it? And then after you're after you get through using it, how do you put it back? Uh do you have to have a song, a prayer, uh, or whatever in order to give it back to Mother Nature? And there became a real interest on the part of young people, and some of them did not really know the Navajo language, so we had to kind of sort of walk them through as to how to go about collecting herbs. So I believe that this knowledge needs to be uh rekindled among a lot of our young people and to be able to share them and continue. Because I think and I believe as a as a Dana, we're unique in many ways, as well as other Indian tribes who are unique in many ways. A lot of them still have their traditional ways, their ceremonies, and their knowledge of how to use certain herbs. And I believe that this is something that needs to continue because of our ability to be in harmony with our surrounding and to be in balance with everything that's a part of the natural cosmic order. And so that's one thing that I think the young people need to also know. And then it's also important to realize that we've got to come back to our a lot of our traditional ways. Many of our young people have been assimilated into mainstream society, and some of them have been acculturated where they no longer know their language, they no longer know a lot of the traditional stories that we have, and then the different ceremonies. They no longer know that. According to our elders, our elders, they say that in order for a prayer to be effective, you have to use the Dine language, the Navajo language, because the holy people are the one that that's listening. And so they will be able to understand what your problem is and how you need help. So that's the other thing that we need to have the young people realize that we have our ways and to continue to follow the ways of the white people. It's really not definite as to where things are going. Like one of our elders used to say that you just don't jump on a bandwagon without really asking where it's going, or you just don't follow people without asking where they're going. Because you never know, they might lead you off a cliff. And I think that's true because the way things are today, there are so many things that are unpredictable, and we don't know where we're going, especially with the current administration, and then also how they're kind of unraveling the democracy that really is an integral part of our way of life and our people, the Coke Talkers, fought for the freedom. And it's it's necessary that they learn our ways, because we believe that our traditional language, our ceremonial ways, and our story is what really makes us whole and makes us uh in balance and in harmony with our surroundings. So that guides us mentally and physically.

SPEAKER_00: 16:43

Those are really important points, just the idea of teaching the younger generation not only about medicines themselves, but how to respectfully procure and use them and follow the protocols around them, as well as our relationship with the limit and with medicines and again the protocols that have sustained communities for generations. So your emphasis on the importance of this knowledge is powerful and um it reinforces how critical it is to create space, right, for youth to be able to learn and connect and carry these teachings forward. So thank you for speaking that so clearly. Next question is what sustained you during the pandemic in this role?

SPEAKER_01: 17:24

I would have to say that the knowledge and uh the different stories, prayer songs, and and ceremonies that were shared with me by my my parents, my grandparents, and some of my elders, you know, it's it's really kind of a disheartening position to be in. I've I've caught COVID probably about three times, but these prayers, these songs and all have kind of helped me get through them. So it's really kind of like a lonely feeling and to be stuck at home and with really no one to depend on. And then also the directives that they were given out not to go places to stay at home. And I it gave me time to think about a lot of things. And I would have to say that whatever has been given to me from my elders, that's what sustainment. The prayers that I was told that I was that was shared with me. And then the songs. We have um protection prayers that talk to our deities. We call them the internet, the holy people, the holy people. How we've been taught that these prayers and these songs are used to communicate with them, and they are gonna offer you protection in whatever difficulty that you say that you're facing, and it's gonna guide you through. And so I think that's that's what really helped me, these prayers that that were shared with me by my elders, and then also the the songs, the protection prayer songs, and then also just being mindful and maybe even using some of the ceremonial objects that I've been given, saying prayers with that. So, and I believe all those helped me really sustain me through all this turmoil, the pandemic, and then also the the herbs, some of the herbs that I that I was told about, and then also knowing certain medicine people that knew how to collect these herbs, because my knowledge is only just probably a small sample of what other medicine people know. Because I was brought up by my parents who have never spent a day in a classroom setting didn't know the English language, my grandparents, but they were very knowledgeable in the traditional ways of our people, the different herbs that they knew, in the songs, the prayers. And I I embarked upon learning a lot of those and the BIA way back in the late 50s, early 60s, they used to come around looking for children out there, the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And if they saw you out there, then they immediately pick you up, take you back to your parents, and then tell your parents that there's a law in place by the federal government and by the Child government that children have to go to school. So it was mandatory. So that's how I was picked up when I was about eight years old. Went to a boarding school, and so I spent the winters in boarding school. And many of these traditional stories, songs, and all can only be talked about during the winter because our belief that when nature is asleep, that's the time to share these esoteric knowledge and then the ceremonial stories. That's when they they can be shared. So it up until that time that I used to spend a lot of time with my grandparents, and I knew a little bit about it. But when I left and went to school, I went to school for the next 20 years or so. And I never spent that much time with my grandparents, and some of them passed on. So it wasn't until I came back after I completed my schooling that I started to go around asking some of my close relatives, my uncles, and some of those people and different people that I knew. That's when I started to relearn a lot of those. And I always believe that there are certain things that are innate, meaning that you're born with it from generation to generation. Language is only one, and then the belief system, the ceremonial story. They're all a part of us, and it just needs to be, you just need to reach into your, I guess, your existence and grab them and bring them out, rekindle them, touch it, rekindle them. And so that's what I think. I started to remember a lot of those things. So I believe that's what really sustained me during that time. All these um stories, ceremonies, prayers, songs. And then also um my grandkids, even though they couldn't come come around, they would call me and talk with me. And so, and I I believe that's true for a lot of elders. Uh that connection that they have with their grandchildren. You know how their children, they are if they make all kinds of mistakes and they're not well disciplined. But the grandchildren, they're like little angels. They do no wrong and and everything is whatever they ask you for, you give it to them that how precious they are, grandchildren. They're little angels, they don't make mistakes or nothing. It's only the parents, they're the one, they're the awful one. So get uh getting calls from my my grand my grandchildren, I think, I think was good. And even though I guess my granddaughter was told that you can't go see your grandpa, you can't go over, but she insisted coming over. So I was there by myself, and my wife ended up in the hospital, so she was there and I was just by myself, just really feeling the emotional pain of having lost my my sister to cancer back in just when the COVID started, and then my niece and one of my grandkids, one of my grandsons. So all that was taking a toll on me. And so my I was just sitting there in my house, just really feeling the emotional pain of the loss. And then my someone pulled up to the door, and then my granddaughter came running in with a mask on, and she was just really happy to see me. Say, Grandpa, grandpa, how are you doing? Are you doing all right? And it seemed like just by her presence, all the anxiety, frustration, disappointment, the loneliness, and all just kind of sort of disappeared. And she took that away. And I I believe that little children or medicine people they bring into your environment the love and just that that that love that they have. So that's what I think also just the different relatives, grandkids, and just different relatives that I had, just call having them call, call me. And I I also understood what it meant to really, I guess, start missing people during that pandemic because we were we were told not to go any place. So, and and I I go to spiritual gathering almost every weekend, make connections with people before the pandemic. So I got close to a lot of people, and they became important to me in uh the exercise of our spiritual way of life. So I I really started missing them, and I I just I had to go out and at least see them. And so, even though we were told not to go any place, I drove to one of my close relatives and and I drove up to his house and just just to see him, even off at a distance, to wave to him and and and talk to him and not not really get close. And the even that in itself, I think was really helpful. It was uplifting spiritually, and it also made me feel a lot better. So those kind of things, I think, just the connection that you have with people and how you continue to communicate even through this ordeal, just that continuous communication. I think that also sustained me through it. And then all the different herbs that songs, prayers, and that really helped me.

SPEAKER_00: 25:01

Well, thank you for sharing that reflection. Um, it's truly powerful to hear how prayers and songs and stories and ceremonial tools really help sustain you during that time. And it's wonderful to know that you're um the importance of grandkids and um the role that they play in keeping grandparents sustained in parents. So um, yeah. To the next question. So this uh overlaps with the last one a little bit, but um, the next question is what were your sources of strength and hope during that time?

SPEAKER_01: 25:35

I believe that believing in yourself, and then also believing that you were given all the necessary tools to live a good productive life, and then to be in a position where you are able to reach out to people. I guess just knowing that that you have the equipment to continue to live a life, to continue to reach out and help people. So just that, I guess, positive mentality that you were put on this earth for a reason and that all of your ancestors, your your grandparents, your parents gave you the necessary instrument to live a life where you can help people. And I guess just knowing that I think was really, really powerful. And I never really consider myself to be a person that people can look up to and people that that can gravitate towards in order to gain strength. Because our our belief is that that you build sort of like a protective shield. It's almost like a bubble. You exist within that bubble, and that bubble is a protective shield, and we call it sa'anare do bogaloshi, means that that'an is sort of like the continuous existence of a male energy for, I guess, longevity into the future. It never diminishes or it never goes away, it's always there in its continuous. So, and then being in its protective shield, sa'anared, and living with it, and being in that, and that shield is sort of like you build that with the prayers and the songs that you have, and it's it's it's it's your protection. And if you encounter, and I've met different people who were really going through a lot because they've lost maybe a loved one, someone that that that was really close to them, or they're they're experiencing certain things within their life that has really kind of brought them down. And just to go over, talk to them, and just to embrace them. And I I tell them, I I I'm going to share with you my protective spear so that he can give you strength, that he can help you to overcome whatever illness or whatever concern, whatever pain that you've gone through, you can go through it. And I I think it's people have commented that that it's good that they they met me on that day and that I spoke with them. And from there they kind of sort of felt strong and able to continue. So I think it's just that knowing that um all these things that have been shared with me throughout the years have put me in a position for um, I guess in a humble way, not to brag or anything, but in a humble way, be able to touch the lives of people and bring them whatever joy and whatever uh happiness that they can experience as they continue on with their life. So I think that that also helped me sustain just believing what I've been given that I needed to carry that on.

SPEAKER_00: 28:43

Thank you. Yeah, the idea of you were saying positivity and knowing your purpose and honoring the work of your ancestors really resonates deeply. And I also appreciate um you sharing the Dine concept of building a protective shield. Um, if you feel comfortable sharing, how do you see these teachings shaping the way your community approaches healing and resilience moving forward?

SPEAKER_01: 29:09

I believe that there's a realization that that has come among some of the people that we have our traditional ways or ceremonies, but those ceremonies are only for correcting whatever disharmony that we bring into our lives because either we acted something that was not in line with the traditional teaching of our people, or maybe because of certain things that we came upon that wasn't necessarily our fault, but yet we're affected by that. So the realization that we have our traditional ways, but then we also have this other defied man's medical system there that we also need to rely on that because many of these sickness that came among us since the coming of the People, or really something that our or or people were not immune to. I guess one thing is like diabetes. Diabetes was never heard of about 50 years, 100 years ago, and cancer was never heard of, and Parkinson's disease was never heard of, and more like recently, um Lugier's disease. And some of those were never heard of among our people, and we don't really have the ceremonies to correct those illnesses, to conquer those illnesses. And there, I believe within the community there is a realization that we have our ways, but we also have to depend on the white man's ways because some of those sickness came because of what they brought, like diabetes. We had our own food system that really was a real contribution to our health, keeping a healthy lifestyle. But with all the sugar and different things that was introduced, then that really kind of messed our system, our body, our physical system, where some of our people started having problems with diabetes. And then cancer also, the extraction of mineral, especially uranium, really caused a lot of sickness among our people. And we've lost loved ones, people who were close to us to cancer because of uranium and asbestos and some of the things that were out there, and even tobacco smoking extensively and things like that. So those are the things that that that we were not aware of, but yet the white people they've been able to develop different types of vaccines to combat them. So that's I guess sort of like something that our our community, I believe, is aware of that we do have our ways, but but at the same time, there's the other health system, other medical Western medicine that we also need to rely on.

SPEAKER_00: 32:00

Well, thank you for thoughtfully answering that. Um, let's move on to the next question. Can you share a moment or memory from that time from the pandemic that stands out to you?

SPEAKER_01: 32:15

The loss of a lot of our medicine people. You know, uh we lost a lot of our spiritual leaders or of medicine people during COVID. And it's really unfortunate that it has happened. And a lot of these medicine people, they had a wealth of knowledge that some of us were not able to tap into. Like I regret going out to see a couple of the elders. I was just so busy doing other things all these years that I never really spent time with some of our medicine people. And so some of those went on during the pandemic. So they took with them all the knowledge that we regret not not learning. And so I think that's something that is so disheartening. Then it's it's also, I guess, in a way, interesting and also demonstrates the need to also tap into Western medicine. Like some of our medicine people have said in the past that they didn't need to worry about getting the the pen um the COVID. They didn't need to worry about it because they have their their prayers and they have their songs and they have their herbs and everything else. And so they can do, even basically stand up to this sickness, and it won't affect them. And we try to explain, I try to explain as well as another colleague of mine tried to explain to the medicine people that this is this is something new. This is a sickness that we have never experienced. So we have we do have our traditional ceremonies, but a lot of those ceremonies are specifically aimed at certain types of illness. But this is a new illness that we're faced with. So so you we you have to be careful, you have to follow the protocols that are established, wearing a mask and being six feet away and staying vigilant and at home and not really going out. So we we try to tell them, even though, like we were explaining to them, you might maybe have all of your medicine, uh ceremonial objects. And if you stand in front of a train and the train is coming, and you might say that I won't get hurt by that train because I have my medicine, medicine bundle in my ceremonial ways. And that train is something foreign. We never, it's never, it was never a part of our ways, and that's gonna run over you regardless of whether you have your your ceremonial objects or not, because it's something that that's not a part of our ways, that's something new. And so that's how we how we try to explain the impact of COVID-19. And so I guess that's one of the things that I think was unfortunate that we lost a lot of medicine people, and some of those medicine people took a lot of knowledge with them. We never relearned it. So that's that's I think it.

SPEAKER_00: 35:20

Thank you. I really appreciate your insight. The next question is how did your experience during the pandemic impact you personally, professionally, and within your community in terms of sources and strengths?

SPEAKER_01: 35:36

It gave me really time to think um when I was just all home by myself. And whenever you encounter a problem, uh a sickness or whatever, you try to think about what did I do wrong? What did I do wrong to bring this up on myself? Is it because of certain protocols that I did not follow? Um, living a traditional life of traveling on the beauty way road? Is there something that I didn't do right? Something that I brought upon myself? Did I make other people angry at me? Things like that. You kind of think, why is it that this coming among our people, the Signas, uh according to the traditional stories of our people, we have the four sacred mountains, Sisnats and Sotsu, the Benza. And within that, we we exist and we have our traditional ceremonies that are done every year by many of our people asking that we could always be safe within these four sacred mountains. But every illness and whatever things that are negative cannot find its way into our home here within the four sacred mountains. And so that's that's sort of like deeply, I guess, the the belief that that that I had. But um, it seems like I I came to think about some of the traditional ceremonies that we have. Are there certain things that are not being done right? And are there certain things that we're beginning to mix with with our traditional, some of our traditional ceremonies? Is that why we're beginning to experience these kind of things? Like within there are there are different ceremonies that can only be conducted during the summer, and then there are certain ceremonies that can only be conducted during the winter. But one of the ceremonies that we usually do only during the summer has been sort of turned into a social event, what we call song and dance. And I I have a clan father who was really against that, saying that we should not do that. Some of these songs are sacred, they're not supposed to be sung during the winter, but they're they're made into social events, and people are just making it where they want to go have fun and dance and all. It shouldn't be like that. So, and then there are certain ceremonies where some of our medicine people are beginning to charge really, really high price, exuberant costs. They are charging a lot, and so and for people that are that are really low income, people that are on fixed income, that only maybe get about five, six hundred dollars a month, you're basically taking all that away from them. Is that something that we shouldn't do to our own people? We should only charge whatever they can afford to pay and those kind of things. And then just other other things that that that I saw happening with with how our ceremonies, ceremonial ways were not being kept sacred, they were being um, I guess, um, consecrated in different ways. So that was sort of some of the things made me think about a lot of the things and a lot of the things that I feel that needs to be changed within our ceremonial setting and the way that we conduct certain ceremonies, the way that we go about our lives. So I think in that way it did, like I was saying, I'm an educator by profession, and um just just a time that I had, I um wasn't able to do a lot of the things that I normally did as far as going out among some of the young people to different schools, sharing information with them about our cultural ways and how we should how they should go about their lives. But and I wasn't able to do that, so I just kind of kept at home. And then uh the the community, I believe that there were times when a lot of the community people were kind of like looking for different ways to deal with what they were going through, and then just being involved in in uh where we gave out food also to people, coordinating efforts with some of the different organizations from off the reservation that brought food over and how we shared some of those food with people. And so there was a real, I think, a real desire to reach out uh to different organizations that can help them. And I think this is the fact that they kind of also re-emphasize one of the most important things within our culture, which is and is the relationship that we establish with with other people. And I belong, I introduce myself as belonging to the Gahinani, Turichi. Those are the living arrow people of the Bitterwater clan. I guess we're sort of like the protector of the clan, and then my father's clan is the big water clan, and then my grandfather is the red street running into the water, and then my paternal grandfather is towering house clan. And we identify ourselves, we introduce the people through our clan, and through our clan we can establish a relationship, even though we don't know a person, we might first meet them, and through the clan system, how we introduce ourselves, we'll come to find out how they're related to us. They might be my nephew, they might be my grandson, my uncle, and then the lady folks, my sister, my niece, my grandmother, my mom. So so through that, uh we have that way of relating to one another. And I always emphasize that the cat is sort of like the cornerstone of the social order of our people, how we kind of interact with one another. So I believe that the community they came to realize how important cat is, that relationship they have with their neighbors, their family, and how important it is. And within that, there's there's teachings of how we need to take care of ourselves by eating the proper food, drinking water, and then taking care of our parents, our siblings, respecting them, looking out for them, and our neighbors, how we're supposed to be respectful to them and watching out, watching, watching over them, taking care of them. If they need help, go out and help them. Those kind of things, those are the kind of teaching that I think our people kind of remember how important it is, Ken, and how they interrelate with one another. That's um I think it.

SPEAKER_00: 42:40

Yeah, I really appreciate such a deep reflection. Um, it's profound that you took the time to ponder these questions, you know, considering the roles of traditional stories and protocols during the pandemic and what changes might need to be made to better support the community. Yeah, your insight reminds us of how important it is to honor and listen carefully to the wisdom passed down through generations. Um, so that leads to the next question. What do you hope others, especially younger generations, take away from your experience?

SPEAKER_01: 43:18

I guess um that that life is unpredictable. And when you think everything is going good, there might be something that occurs that would kind of make you ponder a lot of things. It might set you off course, but uh you have to remember that that your elders, they've taught you a lot about life and how you're supposed to go about living a life so that you're traveling, I guess what we call, meaning traveling that that beauty road of life, uh the corn pollen path, and the corn, the white cornmeal path, and live in harmony and in balance with your surrounding, where everything that you encounter can always be beautiful as you travel, and that whatever that you do, whatever legacy that you leave behind you, you can always be proud of what you have done. And people can put their hand on that, what you have done, and say this was done by the individual who is the child of this person. So your legacy, and then also how it can be there can be beauty. Uh, wherever that you go, everything that you encounter that you encounter on this earth, the animal people and all can know your track and can can honor you and be respectful towards you, and then also that there can also be protection from above the the rain people, the lightning people, the sun, the moon, the stars, they can all look down upon you and guide along the way as you go about your life. Um then that there are prayers and songs that are we have a language, and that you are a unique individual, a beautiful person, and that that the holy people took a lot to make you the kind of person that you are, and the kind of person that you can become. And so those are are the things that you're unique in your own ways, and that you are a part of our people that have been on this earth for since time immemorial, and and there are cultural stories, ceremonial stories, and a lot of things that makes us really unique and that you that they are the children of this earth, our mother. And our mother is never gonna forsake us, she is gonna always look out for us, and the way it has happened ever since we were put on this earth, we have gone through a lot as the net people. We've gone through a lot and we've been able to survive it, and we're gonna continue to survive whatever is going to be facing us. So knowing that and continuing that with what we have, relearning a lot of our ways and continuing into the future. Our people talk about how long we're gonna live on this earth, and they say that there's maybe seven generations or something like that, and we're only at the beginning, so we have a long ways to go, and we can best do that by keeping in mind how unique we are, we have our language, our culture, our way, our people, and that we have a value system that we need to continue to embrace. And one of the problems that I see is that a lot of our young people have embraced the value system of the white people. Where I was teaching a class this morning and we're talking about that, and so they were saying that that our value system is based on cat, what I was talking about earlier, the relationship that we have with our siblings and our relatives, and how we watch out for one another, help out one another, and then also knowing that there's a greater spirit than us, and that all of the animal people, the water people, the bird people, they're all our relatives, and so we need to preserve them and honor them and protect them. Whereas on the other hand, the white people's value system is like how do I get rich? How do I get rich? How can I get rich? And how can I get against all that's associated with wealth, which is basically power, to be able to have power over people. And basically a lot, but a lot of things. You know, we have a story about about about that, how we call him the gambler, how he came among our people way back sometime, way back thousands and thousands of years ago. He was a really light, complex person, was able to speak our language. When he came among our people, he observed how how we were living, living a beautiful way of life, and where we were in harmony with everything. And so he said, Hey, hey, uh, let me teach you a game. I see you guys are out there continuously, and you're just leaving a boring life. There's a game that I'm gonna teach you. Let's play that. So he developed a game, some kind of a game. So he enticed the people to play that. So first he would lose, then he would, they would, he would let them win, kind of going back and forth. And over time he started winning. He won all of their material wealth, and then to a point he started winning their children, and even the people trying to win their children back, betted on their own life. So he won them. In the end, he enslaved all the people, and he was they were doing what he wanted to do. And there was the holy people they they they knew what was happening. So they had a young individual who was almost like a beggar that people did not want, people did not like. But the holy people took that individual and they taught him all the different ways in which he could defeat the gambler. So that's basically what he did to went over challenged the gambler. And through time, he won everything back, even all the people. And so the people were upset, they kind of seized the gambler and they tied him up to an arrow and they shot him towards the east. And the gambler started saying that I shall be back in time to come, and I'm gonna enslave you all. I'm gonna come back, and it just the sound went. So we kind of sort of think that is Donald Trump that gambler that came back trying to enslave us? Is that what he's doing? That's basically sort of a direction that that he's going. And so it's unpredictable how things are, and we need to continue to have our ways because we have prayers, we have songs, and I I believe that the cosmic or the climate change is sort of the earth and the natural cosmic orders way of saying something is wrong. Some you guys are not doing what you're supposed to be doing, and you're just making all kinds of mess. You need to straighten that out, and that's like the of the industrial revolution and how smog and everything throughout the years, all that, and how a lot of pollutants are being released into the air, and that's costly a climate change. So we see the climate, the earth, and the sky kind of uh bringing about all kinds of uh, I guess, disastrous things, especially back in the east. So that's just kind of I guess our young people need to know that we have we're unique, we're beautiful, we have our language, we have our culture, we have our ceremonies, we have our ways. We need to kind of re-embrace that and continue on.

SPEAKER_00: 51:43

Thank you. Your perspective is very valuable. Honoring and preserving our relatives and living in harmony through traditional values is such a strong and grounding message, especially for younger generations. So your encouragement to stay rooted and not to be pulled by Western values is um important reminder. Um, so our final question is what message would you like to share with someone who is preparing to serve their community in times of crises?

SPEAKER_01: 52:15

I think they need to know their community, know who all are. I guess you know that within the community there are different people, elders that that people go to for advice or at least kind of but if you're you're going to implement something, uh you need to work through those kind of people so those kind of people can pass on the information. And so the community can can become aware of what you're trying to do and they can support you. And then also knowing the I guess the community in terms of of the I guess the life, the kind of life that they're living. I know today we have a lot of our people that are both traditionalists, and then we have Christians, and then we have people that are that don't really go either way. And then there are people that are members of Native American Church, and so those kind of things. So you gotta know the kind of people that you're gonna be dealing with, and you always have to be careful as to what kind of information to pass on, and you don't want to upset anyone, so you gotta know your community if you're gonna be going in to make a change, and then you need to know what whatever information that you're gonna be giving them. You need to know all the information about about whatever, like let's say you're talking about a certain kind of disease that that is coming on, and you want to tell the community not to not to do certain things or to be aware of of all this. So, community people might ask you what what kind of disease is it? Where is it coming from? What are the symptoms? And what can you do to counter so those those kind of information? So a person should be able to know uh whatever way that they're gonna be coming into the community, whatever they're gonna be bringing into the community to share with them. They should know a lot about it, and then also knowing your your language and then the the the clan system. Normally, when you go among your people, then when we go among our people, we don't really introduce ourselves by the name first, normally. Traditionally, you you introduce yourself by your clan, saying I'm of this clan, this is my father's clan, my paternal grandfather, paternal grandfather, and this is where I come from, way over that community of genital. And these are some of the elders that are related to me. Because how about the people through the clan? You know how they can be related, related to you, and they might know some of the people that from your community. So it's it's best to introduce yourself like that, and then your name would be sort of like the last thing and then what you're what you're there for. So that's how you would you would introduce yourself. Then also being respectful, whatever information that they share with you, especially if it's like if it's personal information that that a person might share with you, you have to make sure that that you you tell them these are confidential information, you're not going to share it with anyone. And if it's got to be made a part of a study, a data, then there's no mention of a name, just maybe numbers, something like that. So whatever information that is being provided to you, you have to respect that information. There might be some disagreement with what you're trying to do. Some of the people might not like what you're doing, what you're trying to do. So you just have to kind of really be diplomatic about it. The last thing that you want to do is argue with them over certain certain idea, certain concepts, certain approaches. Uh just being respectful and just kind of letting that go. That's what I would think that young people coming into community. Those are the things that they should be aware of. Then, of course, if you start talking with elders, so they might ask you about certain things to kind of test you with regards to how you know, how much you know about your your culture. So I think it's best to know something about your culture, whatever, whatever that you're talking about, and how it relates to some of the cultural protocol. So those are the things that I think thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 57:08

Those are really important points, just truly knowing the people you're serving, their beliefs, their health, uh, understanding your connection in relation to them. And um, it just really, I think, really lays a strong foundation for that trust and respect. Um, so thank you for sharing that. Um, so that was the final question. Um, I'm gonna go ahead and do the ramp-up statement, unless you would like to add anything.

SPEAKER_01: 57:34

There's there's a lot of other other analysis that I can talk about, but specifically talking about what was here. I think that's that's that's the extent of the thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 57:45

Um I feel like I could listen to you all day. This is great. Um thank you, Dr. David J. Sultse, for your time and reflections. Your story contributes to a broader understanding of how native communities respond with resilience and care and cultural strength during a time of great uncertainty. This is voices of native nations in the southwest during the COVID-19 pandemic, and we are honored to share these conversations with you. Thank you for joining us for Voices of Native Nations in the Southwest during the COVID-19 pandemic podcast series. This podcast was developed by the Center for Community Health and Engaged Research at Northern Arizona University with support from Project Hope, a global health and humanitarian organization transforming the health and well-being of communities around the world. For more information and links to resources related to this series, please check the podcast description. Thanks again for listening, and we hope you'll continue to learn from and share these powerful stories.